“It is an absolute nonsense. Well, I hope he hears this: keep your mouth shut. Play the game, play aggressive, let everybody play. Wilshere and your other players are going to make similar challenges. I had a big, wry smile listening to Arsene Wenger trying to defend Jack Wilshere for the challenge. All he said was exactly the same as every other manager has and yet he is one of the managers who goes on the front foot, moaning and complaining and bitching about it because it is unfair on his team.”
Oh dear Jez, it looks like you can join the long line of sad bitter individuals who have felt the need to launch into a bitter personal attack on Arsene Wenger for no decent reason. Arsene has never made this personal, he has just made some sensible and fair comments on dangerous tackling. Quite why the media has not questioned the rather unpleasant and vindictive nature of the comments from the likes of Moxey, Pulis and Allardyce is beyond a disgrace. Arsene never launches this kind of pathetic personal attack, why the media allows others to do this without question is beyond me.
It is also quite clear that old Jez is way off with his comments. Arsene did not 'defend' Wilshere, he admitted it was a bad tackle and a clear red card. Quite how the media allow this to go unquestioned is beyond me. It is not just one media source, the original comments were aired on BBC Radio5, and they have been repeated everywhere without being coherently analysed. If they were analysed it wouldn't take long to show that Moxey is just plain wrong and ignorant with a lot he says, he also comes across as an unpleasant and aggressive bigot in my opinion. The media is showing itself up to be completely partisan and biased in the way in which it has covered this bitter man's personal attack, it is just not good enough that so much of this just gets published without being rationally analysed.
Finally speaking of gutter journalism, here's another piece of garbage from the publicity seeking ex-referee Graham Poll. This uneducated fool seems to think that the number of red cards and penalties handed to our opponents is indicative of the fact that 'Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger is winning his mind games with referees'. What utter nonsense for several reasons. Firstly statistically speaking such a small sample of games is meaningless. Secondly we have never had the number of penalties that our possession/attacking dominance should merit, it is strange that the media have never pointed this out. Thirdly we have always had a disproportionate number of red/yellow cards for the number of fouls that we commit, another fact hinting that Poll is completely off the mark. Fourthly all the penalties we have been given have been deserved and Poll even admits this. So another piece of journalism based on foundations of sand, thank God for blogs, hopefully we can force some of these professional idiots out of business!
Who the fuck is Moxey???? Seriously, no need spending time on attention seeking c*nts.
"Arsene has never made this personal"
I would think Shawcross and Taylor would beg to differ and indeed the entire stoke squad and manager.
And Poll compares our penos in all competitions to other teams penalties in just the premierleague!!
But someone (Poll, ghost writer, sports editor) actually chucks a line in at the end that tries to back track (back toward a more balanced reading of this small sample) and points out that both Arsenal and their opposition are experiencing tighter refereeing. If true, this is winning the wider argument (not the mind games Poll you donkey) that aggressive tactical fouling to "stop Arsenal" will lead to broken legs and most people don't want to see this. Long may it last.
Moxey, you're a c^nt, Moxey Moxey you're a c^nt!
Agree with you about Poll but
"he also comes across as an unpleasant and aggressive bigot in my opinion. The media is showing itself up to be completely partisan and biased in the way in which it has covered this bitter man's personal attack"
kind of sums your response to Moxey as well though?
The suggestion is that Wenger didn't take the same hard line with Wilshere as he has done with opposition players. He was very hard on Shawcross and Taylor but chose a much softer approach for his own player. His acceptance of the red card used words like he touched the player so that is a red card. If that was a touch Wenger, I hate to see what you think was a reckless challenge.
Arsene has never launched into a personal assault on a manager/player in the cold light of day.
You refer to Shawcross and Taylor, he attacked their reckless tackles after the games in the post match press conferences.
Pulis/Allardyce et al have launched bitter personal attacks in the cold light of day, nowhere near games against Arsenal, Arsene has never done this.
These are quite clear differences.
part of it is the fact that Arsene is clever enough to keep his comments general and he doesn't get into personal battles, even so, the media should not allow the likes of pulis and allardyce to do what they do without question
mourinho did it and was forced into backing down, the same should happen for allaryce, pulis et al scum
I think the English media with the exception of Guardian is absolutely pathetic.
Would they even misquote English players?
I disagree. Wenger launched an attack on Stoke and Shawcross after spurs had played them. He wasn't even prompted to do so. Nothing whatsoever to do with his team and no apology followed. The way stoke play doesn't concern Fergie or Ancellotti the way it does Wenger. Why is that do you reckon?
Those who think Wenger is merely aiming to rid English football of over-aggressive tackles are deluding themselves.
He chooses his moments to benefit Arsenal. He called Stoke a rugby side on the eve of a game against Blackburn who adopt a similar style which was being officiated by the same referee. Rather timely wouldn't you agree?
People, quite rightly, are questioning his motives. As you say Arsene Wenger is an intelligent man and he has the ability to articulate himself very well but that doesn't hide (for me at least) the fact he is behaving to serve his best interests only.
That of course is his job but rise of the self-righteous ceremony.
There's a simple way you can distinguish the Shawcross, Taylor and Wiltshire tackles. Two of the three tackles were high and shattered legs, the other was low and the opponent walked away. The other distinction was two were committed by supposed seasoned and experienced defenders, while the third was by a young midfielder still learning his trade. We could leave idiots like Moxley and the anti-Wenger press to work out the subtle differences but don't hold your breath. They're too busy being wankers.
actually you should go back and look at this in context
this is his qoute relating to stoke:
"I saw some pictures last Sunday; you cannot say anymore it is football, it is rugby on the goalkeepers not football. The referees cannot go on and accept that. When you see how Shawcross kicked Gomes, how Huth pushed Gomes in the goal, you cannot say that is football anymore.”
this is not a personal attack on shawcross or pulis as was made out in the media
he has stated that stoke were deliberately fouling the keeper, something that was clear from watching the game
he's not making it personal, he's just stating facts
interesting how this isn't allowed and you bizarrely think he should apologise for it? apologise for what precisely, stating an obvious fact?
interesting also how everyone is allowed their say on wilshere, i have no problem with this
something you are failing to grasp is that allardyce, moxey, pulis have all launched personal attacks on wenger, wenger has not laucnhed into anything personal back or initially
this is why your argument falls down
I can't remember AW ever mentioning Wolves by name.... And who the hell is Moxey (wasn't he on Auf Wiedersehen, Pet)?
I should also add that Pulis and Fat Sam represent the common man. Therefore red tops are more likely to side with their opinions than Wenger who is perceived by some as a pompous frenchman.
The Guardian might view Wenger in a different light or at least use more analysis when reviewing comments made.
It's not an anti-Wenger campaign anymore than Wenger can be classed as an anti Stoke or Blackburn campaign.
Wenger isn't out to 'get' Poxey, Pubic, Fat Sam or any of those other small minded paranoid twats. He wants to stop the stupid reckless tackling that is seeing not only Arsenal players, but also other teams suffer career threatening injuries through brainless tackling and roughhouse tactics. If Owen Coyle can get his team to play proper football I'm pretty sure those idiots can too. Who knows, the FA may then start to consider them good enough to coach the national team rather than chase managers like Wenger.
The apology should come as Shawcross never kicked Gomes at all. It was a false accusation. Probably something he guessed would be true but wasn't. That requires an apology.
Your argument also fails when you gloss over this comment
"The referees cannot go on and accept that"
Hint to the same ref that was officiating the Arsenal vs Blackburn game that very weekend. Blackburn use Mortem Gamst Pedersen in the same manner as Rory Delap. Also knowing that your goalkeeper was having a tough time.
He's created these personal attacks himself by using other clubs and players by name in a campaign to clamp down an area of the game where Arsenal struggle.
He's trying to influence the ref nothing more.
He's a big boy and he know what he's doing so I wouldn't feel sorry for Wenger.
I would be interested to hear what you guys felt if Pulis suddenly decided to rid English football of divers and openly cited Chamakh as an example. Would you be so forgiving then?
It's not done in football. You don't hide behind the media and piss all other clubs to help your own cause. You can say there are too many divers, like you can say there any too many fouls on goalkeepers without naming players and clubs. If you choose to do so, you make yourself a marked man. Fair enough is what I say.
Wyn Mills, you cannot excuse or differentiate Wilshere because he is young or didn't break anyone's leg.
Firstly because Shawcross is also a young player 'learning his trade' and also his tackle was equally low.
Wilshere was purely fortunate that his tackle didn't break Zigic's leg. I would add that Wilshere is more aggressive by nature than Shawcross and Taylor, the latter was just a clumsly oath with no technical ability and the former went into a 50-50 and hurt the player. That to me was unfortunate just as Wilshere was fortunate.
Wenger isn't hiding behind the media. He's asked questions about his players legs being broken and he answers them. If other managers get the hump and want to get personal because their players and clubs have a light shone on them then its their problem.
The reference to Wilshere being more aggressive is just a hunch. I could be wrong but having only seen a couple of Arsenal games this season, I can already say it wasn't the first time he launched himself into a bad tackle.
I am going to guess that it won't be his last red card for such a challenge. He's got a touch of the Paul Scholes about him without the humble fasade.
It's amazing how uneducated and without any intelligence all this people argue. and those idiots here ( probably sun readers ) who defend people like moxey. it's time to go back to school and don't believe everything your papers ( if you can actually read ) say.
i'm honestly disgusted ... no wonder goverments can do what they want with their populations as people seem to have lost any ability to think logically.... very sad ... but i feel sorry for you.
Mate, Wilshire is some 5 years younger than Shawcross...so he's a toddler in comparison. He should be allowed some slack, don't you think?
Shawcross, I would remind you, also has previous. Just ask franny Jeffers. Take another look at Shawcross's tackle on Ramsey and Wilshire's on Zigic and you will see a clear difference.
Equally Wyn Mills, Moxey was asked to respond to Wengers claim and he did. If your guys or Wenger don't like it, then by your standards, that is your problem.
Wenger initiated this when he named clubs and players, needlessly citing them as examples to his opinions. He could merely generalise and have the same impact. If he would have said, the refs need to clamp down on fouls on the keeper, I think we would have got his point. There was no need to highlight stoke's approach. There is no law that Wenger has to be completely frank with the media. In fact it's naive and liable.
"It's amazing how uneducated and without any intelligence all this people argue."
As Zigic rolled around in agony on the flour, I am sure he noted how young Wilshere was an apology. When you go out on the football pitch you have a responsibility to tackle with control. It's like a 18 year old who just passed his test deciding to drink and drive and getting into an accident. You would excuse that individual just because he was young or happened not kill someone. Whilshere is 18. He's not a baby by anybody's standards.
Sorry, but has Wenger come out and personally attacked Pubis? When exactly did he single out Poxey? I believe that was Danny Murphy who actually pointed at the managers, (unless Wenger has added impersonation to his list of talents).
Managers comment on players all the time. Nothing wrong with that. Its once you start to have a go at your peers that it gets nasty.
They get personel because they have no arguments whatsoever evidence of the drivel dished out here from the stoke apologist trolling this site. I pity them. This is no even match. Arsene is a cultured, intelligent and above all a forward thinking man. There's only one winner. Cryff, the Dutch manager and even English players like Danny Murphy are on his side. That's why cretins like Moxey rely on the media to help them out to twist quotes and comparing apples with organges.
Besides Fulham fans are really hating clubs likes Stoke and Wolves.
Zigic was in such agony he was sprinting around the field 10 minues later. Do me a favour.
It's hilarious how Stoke (incl. their supporters) are so sensitive and delicate that they go bat-shit hysterical to the point of threatening legal action because an opposition manager DARES to criticise their tactics.
And they can't let it go, can they? It's been what--a month or more--since Wenger made those comments and they're STILL whingeing about them? I thought they were supposed to be tough, gritty manly men, weren't they?
They're so hysterical they actually call such comments "personal"! Criticizing Shawcross for using rugby tactics is personal?
And btw, he never ever said anything about Shawcross after that clogging thug assaulted Ramsey last season.
It's interesting how Stoke fans NEVER mention Arsene's comments about Huth, do they? They're suspiciously silent on that.
The extreme defensiveness of the Stoke crowd says everything about them and nothing at all about Arsene.
Arsene just hit a nerve and told the truth. That's what they can't handle.
So they show their true classless, boorish, low-rent colors by attacking the man personally. And the media let them get away with it. Imagine if Arsene ever made any similar comments about other club managers - telling them to shut their mouths, calling them hypocrites. The media would have a field day.
It's tragic to see players like Gudjohnsen and Tuncay playing for Stoke. They're not thugs and they have genuine football skills. They deserve better.
It's great that Mr Wenger has got under the skin of all these idiots, so much so Pulis attacks him on a weekly basis despite not existing in remotely the same stratosphere. Pulis has a history of dubious behaviour that was exposed at his previous clubs.
The only relevant 'Moxey ' I know of is the character in the great 'Auf Wiedersehen Pet '. The irrelevant one will soon be back in the Championship where he belongs along with the Yorkshire/Irish dinosaur.
Don't see how he can sprint around the pitch 10 minutes later when the incident occured on the 90 minute mark. That tackle must have hurt. It was reckless and straight-legged.
Marcus, you make some idiotic points there.
Firstly Wenger's comments on Shawcross were personal as he claimed, inaccurately, that he kicked Gomes.
Secondly you mention that players such as Tuncay and Gudjohnsen deserve better than stoke? So you'd rather not see teams like Stoke evolve in the same manner as Wenger has evolved Arsenal from the Graham days?
What a fool you are.
1. Arsenal are news and Blackburn and Stoke not so much and the media is tilted towards rather nasty minded scandal and gossip so some of the bias is just the system and nothing personal. That said it gets a bit frustrating the Stoke team described as outraged and furious when they wave imaginary cards to get Gary Neville sent off ( a fine goal but still) while Fabregas gets tut-tutted.
2. Taylor may actually have been clumsy but that's a pretty poor excuse in a top flight football player and something he should take responsibility for. Shawcross on the other hand does actually seem to hurt people on purpose, the Adebayor assault being a case in point. You can't call it a tackle because it was off the pitch and nowhere near the ball and there was a carbon copy on someone else last season. I'm sure he didn't mean to break Ramsey's leg but he wasn't worried about it and his tackle was very high and late.
3. Anonymous states as if fact that no-one kicked Gomes. I don't have videos of old Stoke games but I was fairly sure I saw one in the highlights. Can anyone confirm?
4. What is irritating about people going on about Wenger only saying stuff to influence the referees are the implications that he is somehow unusual in doing so and that it doesn't matter whether or not he has a point. Sam Allardyce and others are constantly moaning about how the big teams get all the decisions in advance of playing one of them and Ferguson is the master. He has actually specifically asked for more protection for his players on a number of occasions. In this case Wenger had a point so there was some chance of it not being dismissed out of hand as self-serving cant.
5. The Sunday Times caption for its picture of Wilshere/Zigic said something like "5'7" Jack Wilshere was sent off for this tackle on 6'8" Nikola Zigic". If you are 6'4" and clumsy you need to be more careful than if you are 5'7". As it happens I think there was an element of retaliation because Zigic had flattened Wilshere off the ball with an elbow to the face a few minutes earlier which I don't exactly condone but the lack of willingness to do that is in fact what people accuse Arsenal of lacking.
It's pointless trying to have a discussion with neandertalers like Stoke supporters. They're sc*m. Just read what some of them have posted on Fulham's fansite. Disgusting.
The term football club should be stripped of from teams like Stoke and Wolves. Even the term rugby would be a compliment for what they stand for.
Not denying the tackle didn't hurt, but it certainly hasn't put Zigic's career on hold, has it?
Wilshere apologised after the match and said he would learn from it, which is more than Ryan Shawcross or Karl Henry have ever done.
Its funny how, when the bad tackling argument doesnt work, people switch to the anti-divin debate, and always citing Eduardo.
Point 1: Eduardo was cleared of diving by an independent committee.
Point 2: Arsenal fans also want diving clamped down on, but it is less important because a dive never broke any ones leg.
Marcus - couldn't agree more. I'm amazed by how precious the Stoke supporters are, truly amazed. "Oh my god, Wenger accused Shawcross of kicking a GK. He must apologize. Waa Waa Waaaa." For weeks now. Someone asked how we'd feel if Pulis used Chamakh as his reference for diving. I can guarantee you we'd be well over it within a day and not popping up on Stoke websites to attack Pulis.
Yes, Wenger made those comments just prior to the Blackburn match in order to influence the referee. But what is wrong with trying to influence a referee to enforce the rules of the game when historically they have proven to be incapable of doing so? Shouldn't every manager encourage proper enforcement of the laws of the game?
The Stoke supporters will say, "why pick on Stoke or Shawcross then?". Because your team, like Blackburn, are told to bend, if not break, the rules of the game in order to gain an unfair advantage, and consistently do just that. It is illegal, unsporting and lacking class, but is excused by the media because your managers are "gritty Englishmen". Just because someone has called you on it doesn't mean that person has a personal agenda, he's simply stating facts.
What AW has always argued against is systematic and tactical fouling of any kind. First, because it ruins the spectacle of this otherwise great game. Secondly, because it often leads to serious injury. When players are taught or instructed to physically intimidate other players, it's too difficult to draw the line between what is and isn't appropriate, leading to frequent, and sometimes very serious, injuries.
Yes, Wilshere's was a bad tackle. But I can guarantee you Wenger didn't send the rather small Wilshere out there to try to intimidate the rather giant Zigic. It's impossible to eliminate individual mistakes, errors in judgement or poor technique, but that doesn't mean we should accept teams whose primary tactic is to physically intimidate other teams.
Just to clear it up Wenger named Huth for shoving the goalie, Shawcross for kicking him and the whole Stoke team for rugby style tactics.
This was in response to their treatment of the goalie during corners and free kicks rather than open play.
As an Arsenal fan i'll admit that Wenger was wrong, Shawcross didn't kick Gomes, It was Huth who kicked him as well as shoving him in a different incident. However Huth/Shawcross and many of the Stoke team did resort to 'Rugby style' tactics.
Why Stoke fans have attempted to paint this as a great injustice I don't know. The fouls were still commited by Stoke players and the overall effect was a rugby style of fouling the keeper. Why fight to clear one player of deliberate fouling and kicking when the only outcome is to incrimintate another of thier players.
My suspicion is that many have not thought it through and simply do not realise the incidents happened it's just the names that were mixed up. They want to clear Shawcross' name but then shy away from the fact that another of their players is guilty and their manager promotes the deliberate breaking of the laws.
I think you're being a bit harsh on Poll. He says the statistics "would tend to indicate that Arsene Wenger is winning his psychological battle with referees", which is different from saying it is proof that Wenger is getting preferential treatment. And, if you look at the stats, that is the first assumption you would make. Poll then goes to counter that assumption by saying that all the calls have been right!
Anonymous @ 15:06:
"Secondly you mention that players such as Tuncay and Gudjohnsen deserve better than stoke? So you'd rather not see teams like Stoke evolve in the same manner as Wenger has evolved Arsenal from the Graham days?"
Good point - however, as long as Pulis is manager, skilled players like Gudjohnsen are wasted. He has no clue how to use such players to their best potential. He's a totally one-dimensional manager and his team is totally one-dimensional. Give him a footballer who can actually pass and move and he's clueless. Not that his tactics/approach aren't effective to keep him in the division-of course they are. For awhile at least.
Any manager who puts out a team that spends a third of the game wiping a f---ing TOWEL is a manager no one can take seriously. That England's top flight enables such a team to remain in its first division beggars belief. That supporters think this is perfectly OK to watch is pathetic.
Poxey says Wenger should shut his mouth and let the players play. I guess that would be everyone except Ramsey, Ben Afra and Zamora then. Thank goodness some managers like Wenger ARE prepared to go out on their 'front foot', say something about it and raise the debate. Clearly twats like Poxey and his knuckle shuffling chums haven't got the inclination or the balls.
Sorry, but Wenger did scrape over the Wilshere incident. As an Arsenal fan I was a bit embarrassed by it.
Anyways. Is it just me or is it only British managers who seem to be lining up to kill Wenger? I never hear foreign managers cuss him. The only foreign one I remember cussing Wenger was Mourinho, but he cusses everybody.
You sad pathetic fools trying to use comments made by Wenger JUST after he had seen his players have their limbs smashed as some kind of personal attack are sooo eager to seek vidication of the comments of the likes of the repugnant Pulis, Alladyce and now Moxey it is shaemful. And clearly shows the bigoted xenophobic core of many people in this country.
What a fucking shame that we have soooo many small minded bitter racists hiding behind piss weak arguments.
The fact that this attention seeking Poxy Moxey took great delight in seeing Wilshere get a red just purely so he could try and score some petty points sums the bigot up.
And as for the so called attack on poor Shawcross and Stoke after the spud game???
Oh diddums! What did he say that was soooo wrong? That Stoke fouled spud players! That was it!
Are these idiots so sensitive?
Then again, why the hell aint these lot being called whingers??? Thats what I wanna know!
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I am totally with you guys on your views here. Alas, I don't think the media will ever change their way against us just like the FA won't.
Arsenal seems to be the outcast for many reasons:
- We do not play the big money game and have media-darlings like Rooney, Ronaldo or Terry
- We do not play English football
- We are still accused have more foreigners on board than the so-called English teams (although looking at Liverpool this is nonsense)
All this seems to fold into a package of us being targeted by old-fashioned hogs like Allardyce or being ridiculed by refs the way it happened to us on our last visit to Old Trafford.
Still, do we whine about it? No - we get better and this year, no ref and no Fergie can stop us. Our answer is quality, no more, no less.
Well, I do not really imagine this is likely to work.
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